DJ Gear Debate

[kINEkT]

Here you can talk about the latest in turntables, where to buy them, what to buy, how to fix them, etc. If you have any questions about turntables post here!! If you buy any new gear post it here!

[DJ Lalka]

http://microtechaudio.org/shop/images/TECHNICS%20SL-1200%20MK5%20Silver.jpg

[daemonseed]

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/sirdaemonseed/turntables.jpg

[kINEkT]

I hear technics are not very popular in the europe circuit anymore because the torque sucks! You have to give technics a little nudge when you cue a track where as plenty of other manufactures have better turntables now with instant cue time

[daemonseed]

^^ elaborate further kevin.

like which brands and models

[Ryan]

^^ elaborate further kevin.

like which brands and models
He means that the motors aren't strong enough. When you let go of the record, it takes it a bit to get to full speed without giving it a push. Other turntables have stronger motors that don't require that push. However, most DJs have gotten used to technics and probably wouldn't be quick to change.

It's really irrelevant because most DJs are goin the way of the CDJ (had to throw that in there).

[DJ Lalka]

I've spun on alot of turntables... beltdriven, , direct, numark, vestax, gemini, stanton, you name it. techs are the best....:worship: without a doubt!

[daemonseed]

He means that the motors aren't strong enough.

It's really irrelevant because most DJs are goin the way of the CDJ (had to throw that in there).

i was referring to brands:yes:

and fuck only using cdjs :eviltongue: i dunno but seeing a dj spin only cds looks so fuckin boring :hahaha:

been watching djs spin for more than 15 years and djing and turntables just looks so natural

i will use all formats when i spin though (had to throw that in there) \\:D/


sorry for the smilies, couldnt resist using these new ones:doh:

[sleepee]

if i have the cash i wouldn't mind picking up some cdj's *gasp*

[DJ Lalka]

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

goddamn!

[DjMarkOne]

turntables? what are those????

j/k

to this very day, scratching on a turntable is much better than using a pioneer cdj.

[daemonseed]

you are joking about that statement too right?

[Mr. Bastian]

150 G's for that table and they put pots with tinfoil wrapped around them in the background LOL...wow (this was from lalka's link)
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2007/10/08/transrotor-artus_48.jpg

[JPaul]

i was referring to brands:yes:

and fuck only using cdjs :eviltongue: i dunno but seeing a dj spin only cds looks so fuckin boring :hahaha:

been watching djs spin for more than 15 years and djing and turntables just looks so natural

i will use all formats when i spin though (had to throw that in there) \\:D/


sorry for the smilies, couldnt resist using these new ones:doh:

You must not have seen very many good DJs on CDJs then, cause the stuff you can do with em is amazing.

[nawenipwod]

You must not have seen very many good DJs on CDJs then, cause the stuff you can do with em is amazing.

But the sound quality gap is noticeable if you're an audiophile. CDs are cold & harsh sounding IMO. If you were to pump the sampling rate & bit depth up to 96k/32 that would be one thing, but CDs are still at 44.1k/16 last I checked. I'd rather hear a DJ mix boring old (warm-sounding) vinyl than do all kinds of crazy technical stuff with CDs. I'm not saying I'd never use CDJs if I had them at my disposal, but I'd still use vinyl the vast majority of the time.

I also don't care for Ableton Live or most Liva PA-type stuff because it just sounds so square. I like to hear the beats falling out a bit every now and then, I like to hear records skipping & popping. I like hearing now a DJ addresses the challenges & limitations of vinyl mixing.

Not saying my views are right or wrong, it's just my preference. I have a hard time enjoying a CDJ or Live PA unless they bring something really stellar and unique to the table. A lot of people are using them almost exclusively nowadays and I must confess I don't get out nearly as much as I used to because of it.

[Kevy Kev]

To each their own...

[JPaul]

But the sound quality gap is noticeable if you're an audiophile. CDs are cold & harsh sounding IMO. If you were to pump the sampling rate & bit depth up to 96k/32 that would be one thing, but CDs are still at 44.1k/16 last I checked. I'd rather hear a DJ mix boring old (warm-sounding) vinyl than do all kinds of crazy technical stuff with CDs. I'm not saying I'd never use CDJs if I had them at my disposal, but I'd still use vinyl the vast majority of the time.

I also don't care for Ableton Live or most Liva PA-type stuff because it just sounds so square. I like to hear the beats falling out a bit every now and then, I like to hear records skipping & popping. I like hearing now a DJ addresses the challenges & limitations of vinyl mixing.

Not saying my views are right or wrong, it's just my preference. I have a hard time enjoying a CDJ or Live PA unless they bring something really stellar and unique to the table. A lot of people are using them almost exclusively nowadays and I must confess I don't get out nearly as much as I used to because of it.


Ableton is a whole new monster. That program is amazing, honestly it can't be compared to CDJs or Turntables. Its the next thing big thing, I've been spending a lot of time latly using ableton for production and DJing, And the possiblities are amazing, not to mention the live aspects, For example Daft Punk and Justice. Its basically live music production/remixing.

[stasis-AA]

this debate seriously wont die, ever. i cant believe people are still carrying the torch for vinyl. technology moves on, digital is the future, and anybody who tells you otherwise is delaying the inevitable.

first, differences in sound quality between the two mediums are 99% a result of mastering / the quality of the original mixdown of the track, not limitations on one side or the other. most all producers sequence on computers nowadays, and the standard is still high quality wav. there is TONS of vinyl out there that sounds like shit, and doesnt cover the frequency range properly. also i dont care who you are, if im playing out in a club and you cant see me, theres no way you can tell whether im playing a track off a record or off a cd, or going back and forth between the two, or what. if i were to play the same exact song on 320k mp3 and from a record in succession, you couldn't tell me which was which. if i posted a mix and didnt tell you how i recorded it, you couldn't tell me if i used vinyl or cdjs or a laptop or what. the perceived sound quality difference is the placebo effect, and that's it. if anybody thinks they can prove this wrong consistently id love to see it.

setting all that aside, the ease of distribution with digital is enough to warrant scrapping vinyl altogether. it costs a lot of money to master for vinyl, and press masters, and TPs, and make records, and cover art, and package and ship them. it costs 10 bucks for two songs on a record, it has to be shipped to you, and if it sits on your doorstep for too long, chances are its going to warp. if you get unreleased tunes sent to you, it costs 35-45 bucks to press acetates (dubs), that you can play maybe 20-25 times before they go to shit. with digital, there is no extra mastering - you hear the song just as the artist intended you to (and at the same time you learn which producers are truly talented and which need to step it up a bit). there is no shipping time, no pressing time, virtually no distribution cost. you can buy five times as much music with the same 10 dollars. you can have unreleased tunes sent to you 10 minutes before your gig, burn a cd and youre good to go. and youve always got perfect quality copies of all your tunes at your disposal at all times...if you break a cd, you're not going to cry about it. you can carry ridiculous amounts of music with you, without renting a uhaul for your record bag. you could export an original piece from your sequencer and test it in the club that night. i could go on and on.

from a performance standpoint, im really intrigued when people say its less exciting to watch somebody mix cds, or somehow its cheating or otherwise not "real djing" to use cds. if youre a dj who's ever messed with cdjs, you know this makes no sense. if anything, it is more difficult, and requires a much more in depth knowledge of your music to play on a CDJ. you cant watch the grooves in a CD to know when the breakdown is coming, you have to pay much closer attention and really know your tunes or youre going to blow the mix. with cdjs you still need to cue, match, pitch, start, stop, program, and do everything else youd have to do with vinyl....they do not match the beats for you, or take away the human element in any way. the motions you go through performing a set with pioneers as opposed to technics are pretty much identical.

then theres the argument that there is less money to be made from digital downloads. if somebody sells a tune on beatport for 1.99, well they must be going broke, because a vinyl is 10 or 11 dollars! what people dont realize is that 80% of the money you pay for the vinyl is not going to the artist, or even the label. most of it goes to manufacturing, distribution, printing, etc...things you dont need when you post MP3s for sale on beatport. vinyl is expensive because youre paying the production costs for the medium, youre not compensating the artist. if i were to put a song up for sale digitally for 2 bucks, i would see almost exactly as much money as i would per sale if i were to sign it to a label and release a vinyl. no joke. there are less middlemen, less overhead, it just makes more sense in every imaginable way.

im not going to touch on ableton and laptop djing and faux-live PA's, thats a whole different animal altogether. more people are using these things as a crutch than as an advantage in my experience. to a degree i can understand having a problem with these type of things. but the cd - vinyl debate i reeeeeeeally think needs to die. just like vinyl itself.

[Ryan]

Joe is my hero. I knew if I just waited, he would make all of my point for me. ;-)

[kINEkT]

Regardless of the debate there are still plenty of producers who choose to release vinyl exclusively still in 2007 and going to 2008. It seems to be the middle ground producers who stand to lose the most from digital from my observations. Joe you are spot on 99% but the truth is a middle ground artist will make a lot more from selling 500 vinyls than he will selling mp3's. Small artists stand to win greatly who can't mass produce enough sales for vinyl. International artists make a killing no matter what format they sell. We already know vinyl rips bootlegging is a problem but now people are bootlegging online mp3 store bought songs. It is estimated an artist gets several dollars per vinyl sale but only around 40 cents on an mp3 sale. By no way does this information reflect my own opinion, I'm just stating some observations from the music scenes I follow. I am obviously much more in to edm genres produced 99% outside of this country and there are a lot more over there who can make a living off of it because the culture is so big.


I personally use digital 90% and vinyl 10%. Serato and regular vinyl.. only a few tracks I love that are still vinyl exclusive but only a short matter of time till that ends. Digital first then vinyl.

And bTW this was meant to talk about turntables not the grand ole debate guess I will be relabeling this topic :P

[Ryan]

You know you can't have a thread about turntables without CDJs coming into the convo. It's impossible.

[daemonseed]

the ultimate setup :thumbsup:






http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/sirdaemonseed/ancientdjset.jpg

[ty007]

Digital is the way of the future I have to agree......Most of the reasoning behind people's opinions is just as Joe says Placebo.

I still like to see a great DJ Like ANdy C or carl cox up there with the vinyl doing the trade mark "holds up vinyl while pointing" then BAM!!! on the table haha but yes Digital is the new era and I Would agree it offers the possibility of so much that we have yet to see.

[kINEkT]

There are still 100,000 turntables being sold every year and thousands of releases exclusive to wax. Digital is getting there but I'm afraid both are needed still if you want access to 100% of all music.

[sleepee]

and with the tracks exclusive to vinyl thats when 1 turntable comes in handy to rip the song off of vinyl onto your computer and BAM .mp3 ! and now can be used during a digital setup.. so an artist putting a track exclusively to vinyl isn't going to stop the digital takeover heh so i don't see whats the point of the exclusive track to vinyl now anyway..

there is always gonna be a friend who may have a friend or another friend that still has turntables and can do that process if they are needing to do the dub.

[Ryan]

There are still 100,000 turntables being sold every year and thousands of releases exclusive to wax. Digital is getting there but I'm afraid both are needed still if you want access to 100% of all music.
That's because they are cheap. If you could buy a pair of CDJs for the price of turntables, then turntables would be dead.

[sleepee]

i wouldn't mind getting a set of cdj's myself.. !!!

[Ryan]

i wouldn't mind getting a set of cdj's myself.. !!!
I *MIGHT* be selling mine to buy a set of MK3s (I have one original and one MK2 right now). We'll see.

[kINEkT]

That's because they are cheap. If you could buy a pair of CDJs for the price of turntables, then turntables would be dead.

You are incorrect and that is a logical fallacy. come on you darn right know the price of a turntable has nothing to do with what format people use. that makes no sense. vinyl purists are paying $8-14 per record so how would that make any sense at all?

I am an advocate of digital but I am merely pointing out market trends here. This is not my opinion but simply how the industry is still going. You can pretend it isn't like that as much as you want but reality is vinyl still has a small hold on the dj market. You can't get rid of it yet.

And to sleepee - Sure you can rip them but it doesn't sound the same. I've tried to do this with the 10~ vinyls I own, but once you play it back in .wav format ( I dont even compress them, thats even worse) I can never get it to sound as clean as the original vinyl. Vinyl rips will always sound pretty bad.

[daemonseed]

imvho a vinyl dj that can make a crowd of thousands go cuckoo is way more impressive than that of a digital dj

[kINEkT]

imvho a vinyl dj that can make a crowd of thousands go cuckoo is way more impressive than that of a digital dj

You can't even tell from the crowd most of the time?? It could be vinyl and cd being used all the time by big artists. Unless someone is scratching how could vinyl be any more impressive? What you hear is the only thing that matters.

[DjMarkOne]

What you hear is the only thing that matters.

exactly

[6 Sic 6]

I'm waiting for the dual ipod setup to take off and make CDJ's obsolete. It will take some fine tuning but it's going to happen, promise. For you people that are about to respond and claim it will never happen, people made that same claim right before cd based tables came out. Now look where they stand. Newbz.

[kINEkT]

I'm waiting for the dual ipod setup to take off and make CDJ's obsolete. It will take some fine tuning but it's going to happen, promise. For you people that are about to respond and claim it will never happen, people made that same claim right before cd based tables came out. Now look where they stand. Newbz.

Why would you use ipod's ? The new pioneer CDJ-400's support USB hard drives. You can connect a thumbdrive or external hdd. Heck you may be able to even plug in your ipod to the cdj400.. but anyways, I thought this topic was about turntables heh

[stasis-AA]

imvho a vinyl dj that can make a crowd of thousands go cuckoo is way more impressive than that of a digital dj

just curious, what makes you say that?


the laptop / software rant i left out earlier:

its long...youve been warned

another side of it is i think a lot of people using things like ableton / serato as crutches kills the public opinion of digital djing. there are a lot of people using these programs as tools to take an already solid performance to the next level...nobody says damn, sasha and paul van dyk really sucked before they went digital. but there are a lot more people overdoing it, relying on it, and thinking their laptop is going to somehow get them into the big leagues when there really isnt much of anything there. everybody wants to work less and get more recognition. as such, and with the debuts of so many neat gadgets to help out, the definitions of things like live PA, dj set, remix, re-edit, have all become cloudy...a lot of people think playing sequenced shit "live" from a laptop instead of from recorded media gets them 1,000 bonus points. the fact is a good dj doesnt make a good producer. a good production doesnt make a good performance. the elements are all intertwined, but at the same time different.

for instance, LIVE PA to me implies something way beyond just a guy standing there. it implies theres going to be a fucking performance. live PA's are very attractive to promoters (who dont mind paying a little more for it because people will come out for it), and music lovers alike - everybody wants to see the magic happen. sure, you've seen DJ whatever spin, but you haven't seen him LIVE! at the end of the day it really doesnt change much. like somebody else said what you hear is all that matters ultimately. but this vision we have in our minds of our favorite producer working 10 keyboards and a guitar at once while singing live vocals on huge video screens is enough to make us cum / come running all at once.
but unless theres time and money for tons of bullshit theatrics (somebodys buying those tiesto live tickets :), its usually nothing like that

the truth is, making electronic music isn't exciting to watch at all. for most people once the initial cool factor wears off, its somebody sitting at a computer / controller smoking out and playing the same loop over and over and over and over again trying to get it right. theres sample searching, frequency matching, the whole pain in the ass mixdown process. deadmau5 doesnt produce anthems in his mask, and im pretty sure RITM dont have a saw in their studio. the "live PA" just attempts to make the whole thing more glamorous, and more appealing to a crowd. pendulum live is a full band with real instruments and pyrotechnics. daft punk live is a huge fucking stage spectacle. rabbit in the moon, crystal method, orbital, etc etc. but for every success and truly cool experience out there, youve got 15 local kids with laptops, standing like stones in front of a crowd, "remixing" tracks on the fly with clever cuepoints and predefined samples. thats not a performance. thats not a remix, or a new production of any kind. thats tired, boring shit. even a new ibook pro with thousands of dollars of software cant polish a turd. you see this type of shit a lot more often than you see orbital, and imo thats where a lot of the negativity about digital performance comes from. vinyl purism begins at home! haha

ultimately i think that's what causes opinions like the one i quoted at the begining - if you bust out a laptop, or a controller, or youre not wearing headphones, or whatever, people are going to expect next level good. if youre eddie van halen and you step on stage at a sold out show with a banjo instead of a guitar, youre sending expectations into the fucking stratosphere. as a digital dj, if you cant bring it proper x 10, youre just scoring points for the vinyl purists. everytime somebody with a laptop in front of them doesnt amaze, blows a mix, steps on a vocal, whatever...half the crowd goes see, go get your record bag. people are obviously still against cdjs, and functionally those are the SAME as 1200s. its going to take a few more years of a lot of people doing it really well before any more diigtal stigma wears off.

a couple years ago, dj hive was the first big name drum and bass dj to attempt to play a digital set in vegas. he literally almost got booed off the decks, and beaten with a barstool because he pulled out final scratch instead of a fat sack of dubplates. he almost didnt get paid, because he was "cheating". despite the logic behind it, planet of the drums going digital lost them a TON of loyal fans. theres actually division in the worldwide scene now between the "real junglist" vinyl heads and the "newschool posers" with cd wallets. the whole thing is fucking hilarious, but it just goes to show ya. change doesnt come easy, even if its for the best

/ end TL:DR rant of death. sorry, this is subject matter im into.

[sleepee]

fuck you guys i'll stick to my mario paint making music.. psh.. haterz haha

[6 Sic 6]

The last LIVE PA performance I seen was back in 2001 with BT at TAO and that was true form of creating something rather than being a laptop/jukebox dependent like most so called artist are now days. Like Joe says, every artist tries to take the easy way out and expect alot of credit from the technology but IMO it only make the artist look like shit when they sit back, sip a cocktail while letting the computer do the work for you. If any of you have ever seen a real live PA set, you would know the difference from the artist running around like a crack addict with a car stereo rather than waving his/her hand around as if they were doing something productive.

[hellnegative]

All three types of performances have their ups and downs. You can loop on digital with the push of a button and it doesn't seem to impressive. With vinytl, it actualy takes technique. Ive noticed that most CD Dj's like digital because it's easier. I'm sorry, but I love vinyl and will always use VINYL. It's more challenging and a lot more fun to play around with. Vinyl actually makes teh show a show. But anyway....On to PA.
You can't compare live PA to spinning. Thee really is not much of a comparison. If you are producing live, that's a completely different show. But then you have the argument of hardware vs. software and that belongs on a different thread.

[Black Cat]

No matter where I go, I hear this debate. So I'm not going to dabble into it. If it moves the dancefloor, that's all that matters to me. It's good to see there still is interest, though, in vinyl. Being that I'm opening a record/dj store later this year.

As for Techs vs Everything else. You're absolutely right Kinekt. The SL-1200's motor is slightly weaker than other brands out there. What makes them the industry standard is their sheer durability. They are built Tonka tough, hands down and they're easy to fix when they break down. For the home studio, I prefer the Numark TTX series tables. Plenty of torque, great sound, and lots of extras the 1200's don't have. But I wouldn't lug them out to the desert or to a weekly show as they are indeed made of plastic.

[Biggstuff]

CDJ IS THE WAY TO GO, just got cdj 800 mk2's and im absolutly loving it!!! alot of features next gear is a 1000mk3! even MORE FEATURES! shits expensive tho

[Black Cat]

CDJ IS THE WAY TO GO, just got cdj 800 mk2's and im absolutly loving it!!! alot of features next gear is a 1000mk3! even MORE FEATURES! shits expensive tho

I can't agree more. I love my CDJ-1000's but people do love vinyl still. And it's part of dj culture so you can't dismiss it.

[Biggstuff]

oh ofcourse vinyl is the foundation of the culture,cdj's do have a vinyl options for all those vinyl lovers!! scratching is cake!! all in the timing, but really it all comes down to how it sounds!! the listener doesnt care what u spin on, but what he/she hears!

[Black Cat]

oh ofcourse vinyl is the foundation of the culture,cdj's do have a vinyl options for all those vinyl lovers!! scratching is cake!! all in the timing, but really it all comes down to how it sounds!! the listener doesnt care what u spin on, but what he/she hears!

I couldn't agree more. As long as the dancefloor is groovin'!!!

[hellnegative]

""""Turntablism""""

[kINEkT]

digitalism !!

[JCJaguaR]

=d