producers.... is your goal to get tunes on vinyl or mp3 releases ?

[prime mover dnb]

just curious..

it looks like out here in the west coast there are an extra abundance of cd and mp3 djs... almost double i would say from the east coast..
not knockin anyone.. but i am wondering..

if you are are producer.. is your goal for a tune to get a digital release or to get signed and get your tune pressed to vinyl ?

obviously if you do a mp3 release you arent making much if any money at all... and the prestige of having a digital release is almost non existant..

so what do you want to do with your music?

release on a label with 12" vinyl ?
release a mp3 on beatport and such ?

[kINEkT]

Did you do research on the music market? Or are you just assuming vinyl makes more money because they charge up the ass for it?

First of all there is no local vinyl record store in Las Vegas, so I hope it is no surprise that more dj's would spin digital.

Vinyl does not guarantee you will make money. In fact labels can lose money sitting on 500 pieces of wax they thought sounded good but not many dj's did. As for the digital release, they spend 10 minutes of their time compressing a file on their computer and a little more time to submit them to web shops. The overhead just went from $5000 to release a song to the cost of the electricity supplying your computer for an hour. Any money made from digital is pure profit.

I don't think releasing on vinyl or mp3 is even a goal a producer thinks of realistically, they just want to get their music out. If you are in high enough demand, and can off load 500 or 1000 vinyls, then you will get a vinyl release.

[Ryan]

I think this question is dumb.

I don't think ANYONE would be dumb enough to want a vinyl only release. You would basically be shutting yourself off from any chance of bigname DJ (or any DJ that plays often) playing your track.

If you are producing now, you are releasing an mp3. Period. Having it pressed to vinyl is always cool because it means it's a good enough track to be offered on vinyl. But, it will be the secondary release, not the primary.

Are there still vinyl only labels?

[kINEkT]

Are there still vinyl only labels?

Actually there are quite a few still. In hardstyle about 40% of releases are still strictly vinyl only. Depends on the genre really.. House music obviously went very heavily digital.

[prime mover dnb]

I think this question is dumb.

I don't think ANYONE would be dumb enough to want a vinyl only release. You would basically be shutting yourself off from any chance of bigname DJ (or any DJ that plays often) playing your track.

If you are producing now, you are releasing an mp3. Period. But, it will be the secondary release, not the primary.

Are there still vinyl only labels?

thats actually not true on several levels..

most dnb labels are vinyl only.. just about every label ive ever released on is strictly vinyl..
i know first hand that vinyl has been and still can be more profitable than an mp3 release... yes vinyl costs more to press, but i think you would be suprised how many people around the world actually are still vinyl only djs.. especially in eastern europe and asia..

i dont think the question is dumb because its clear in my case..

i was just wondering what other vegas producers were striving for, to get a vinyl or digital release.... or if the goal was to just get their music out there.. which is cool too..

and Kinekt.. you are very right.. pressing wax definately does not gaurantee profit.. its tough.. alot of labels do sit on 500 pieces that didnt sell.. just depends...

[kINEkT]

While there may be a shit load of drum n bass vinyl still, I don't think it's so exclusive as you think anymore. Beatport alone has 4,167 drum n bass releases, with about 30~ new every week, and 10 of those are beatport exclusives you can't get on vinyl. That rivals the amount of releases even house & trance has weekly.

[Ryan]

I can believe that almost half of hardstyle labels are vinyl but DnB has gone digital.

If you are still releasing vinyl only DnB tracks, you need to reevaluate.

[Jaye..Ruue]

BOTH!

DUB in Digital
PROMO on Vinyl
Re-Worked (Market-Ready Release on Both Vinyl and Digital)
VIP on Digital

I don't have time to get into the market of edm music, or why I am suggesting this but there is thought and marketing behind this concept.

[daemonseed]

sort of off-topic but when signed to a label how is one paid? royalties? bonus?

[prime mover dnb]

sort of off-topic but when signed to a label how is one paid? royalties? bonus?

can be a couple different ways... alot of decent size labels will give you an option for an advance... thats half of the expected fee paid up front based on the number of projected pressed/sold..
this can be a good way to go.. especially if you suspect you might not get any money on the back end of the deal...

the negative side of taking an advance is that the label is entitled to their share after cost before you see any additional money.. so in many cases if you take the advance.. its probably gonna be the only money you will see on the deal unless the tune does exceptionally well..

another option for payment is the 50/50 split.. that can take a while tho.. basicly you are waiting until all the copies pressed are sold and the costs are paid back to the label from distro.. then you split the leftover down the middle..

if a label agrees to a dollar amount per 12" sold.. you get a check after the tune as been circulated.. i havent encountered this is years.. i think this option was alot more popular 8 or so years ago when the vinyl industry was much stronger..

a 3rd option which is also frequently used is the str8 up price for a tune regardless of how it does.. sometimes a label will just offer you a set price for a tune which you receive upfront.. "ill give you 500$ for the tune str8 up..." when this happens, you get your money regardless if the tune is shelved/ never pressed.

alot of labels/ booking agencies send out tunes to licensing/advertising agencies for movies, tv ect..
you can make quite a bit of extra cash on a tune thru licensing..
also djs can license tunes for distributed mix cds ect...

these days tho.. especially with so many new producers, alot of labels will not offer any money.. ive heard barcode, hardware, renegade ect tell you that your payment is that you are signed to that label. so no money is coming to you regardless of sales ect..some labels will just release your tune and offer the exposure only...

[kINEkT]

Any moderately sized producer will tell you there isn't even money to be made in producing anyway, only exposure. Your music gets you famous and the gigs are what bring home the paycheck. Theres probably only a handful of producers out of tens of thousands who can live off that money.

[daemonseed]

WELL said kevin and tasha?

[Black Cat]

NOTE: I didn't read every response.

Records are definitely not cheap to make nor to sell. Digital media is the most cost effective way to distribute. Pressing to acetate will likely cost you about $5 per plate and you will have to produce a high quality digital original anyway. The cost of record production is incredible which is why the preferred media these days are either CD's or now .mp3 downloads (which cost nothing to physically produce).

I'm looking to start a record/dj store, but I'm finding out that even through distributors, the records will cost me anywhere between $5-$7 per plate. Then the price of resale of used records aren't nearly as good. It is actually this reason why I'm maintaining the focus of my store to be a "dj store" rather than a "record store". Sure, there may be a handful of people out here who still buy vinyl, but it's far to costly to rely on as the primary source of business.

Any moderately sized producer will tell you there isn't even money to be made in producing anyway, only exposure. Your music gets you famous and the gigs are what bring home the paycheck. Theres probably only a handful of producers out of tens of thousands who can live off that money.

Actually, this is false. If you target the right market (not rave/club dj's) there is excellent money in production. I know several producers who make dance music but market to places like video games, commercials, and other media outlets. These guys make enough to make a living doing what they do. Sure, they gig out once in awhile but overall their primary income is from royalties and contract productions.

[kINEkT]

Of course producing for video games or movies will make you big bucks, but that is out of context to the original topic. This is about producing dance music and nothing else. Most big name producers who pump out 10-15 releases a year are getting paid several thousand dollars a week from gigs. Oh yea, they also play cd's not vinyl

[Black Cat]

Of course producing for video games or movies will make you big bucks, but that is out of context to the original topic. This is about producing dance music and nothing else. Most big name producers who pump out 10-15 releases a year are getting paid several thousand dollars a week from gigs. Oh yea, they also play cd's not vinyl

But any wise producer who wishes to make money producing dance music knows what market pays for it.

*Rereads the original post.*
We did stray a bit off topic.

My answer:
Vinyl is costly to produce. As a producer, you don't want to isolate any outlet to get your music out, but digital means are not only cost effective buy more reliable as a distribution source. Not only to dj's but the general public. As an independent producer/engineer I would say that I don't consider vinyl an option for distribution simply because of the cost factor.

[prime mover dnb]

i guess my question didnt really get across on this one.. =P
i was wondering what producers who make beats around here want to do with their tunes, either digital releases or vinyl releases..
what is the goal of producers ?
to get a digital release?
to get a vinyl release?
to get signed to a major and do cds?

what do you strive for?

i know when i make a tune the gaol is to get it signed for a vinyl release..

on a side note...everyone had some good insights on both angles tho of releases digital vs. vinyl..

[fxbuddaman]

LMAO at this thread, Tasha have you every even sold a record, oh thats right they're all sold out....:worship:



First of all there is no local vinyl record store in Las Vegas, so I hope it is no surprise that more dj's would spin digital.



I've lived here less than a year and I found 2. Yellow Pages :thumbsup:

[Supatype]

I know we have a few record stores but they only carry used vinyl and have small dance sections I thought.Im not a producer but I buy music almost exclusivly on vinyl.When I get Serato ill get what I can digital and buy the stuff thats vinyl only.I think however if I were a producer I would want some vinyl for promotion for sure but the public offering would be digital.

[Jewbacca]

i know its slightly off topic but....Most digital releases would be Wav and not Mp3, cause Mp3 is compressed and has an algorithm that removes quieter sounds the come before and after louder sounds. Meaning you loose your music when you convert it. I don't know many artists that would want to loose the music they worked hard on like that.
Also Vinyl has the problem that you cant play it as often as digital/cd cause it wears out. Also, psytrance for example is mostly outdoor events and it is hard to keep vinyl in good condition with wind and sun. I have seen djs bring out their records and by the end of the track have it too warped to play again. With digital if your cd gets messed up you just reburn it and you are good.

[Ryan]

i know its slightly off topic but....Most digital releases would be Wav and not Mp3, cause Mp3 is compressed and has an algorithm that removes quieter sounds the come before and after louder sounds. Meaning you loose your music when you convert it. I don't know many artists that would want to loose the music they worked hard on like that.
Also Vinyl has the problem that you cant play it as often as digital/cd cause it wears out. Also, psytrance for example is mostly outdoor events and it is hard to keep vinyl in good condition with wind and sun. I have seen djs bring out their records and by the end of the track have it too warped to play again. With digital if your cd gets messed up you just reburn it and you are good.
I guarantee that if I played you a WAV and a 320kbps MP3, you couldn't tell me which was which.

WAV files take up way too much space, take a significantly longer time to download, and cost more. Not worth it IMO. I ALWAYS go with the 320kbps MP3 and my tracks have sounded just fine over every sound system I have ever played (including Empire's Funktion One system).

Granted..... if you were to produce a track, it would make sense to have it in raw WAV but a lot of producers don't even do that because they rather have the conversion done by their production software (maintaining the best sound) rather than by the record label.

Of course, all this goes out the window if you are shipping your track off to a studio to be professionally mastered.

[JPaul]

i always render my tracks in 32 bit WAV, then convert to 320kbps with a audio program.

[Jewbacca]

Ryan I am that 1 in whatever amount of people, person that can tell the difference (i am an audio engineer by schooling and for the love of it). But I agree MOST people can't tell the difference and you are right these 320 kbps Mp3s are MUCH better then those variable bit rate and blah blah other ones. All in all I do agree with you Ryan. And that being said 95% of my music is all in Mp3 form anyways (that 5% are the tracks that I have received directly from the artist).

[Detn8or]

Joey Mazzola has done pretty decent on beatport, he signed with Instereo (DJ Dans Label) so helps a little to get the track on the charts. He has also got quite of bit of prestige from his digital release within the industry, I know agents and other promoters have taken notice and its getting him a few more nationwide bookings, and I was told he got signed to AM Only as well right around when one of his traks hit #1 on beatport.

I think the biggest issue now with vinyl is the distro. With less record stores, I know its harder to get the record spread out, and beatport is known worldwide now so its alot easier to get it known. I know if I had a track released I would definately still do a minimum run, album cover etc., just so you have a more official product, kind of a trophy if you will.

I think this question is dumb.

I don't think ANYONE would be dumb enough to want a vinyl only release. You would basically be shutting yourself off from any chance of bigname DJ (or any DJ that plays often) playing your track.

If you are producing now, you are releasing an mp3. Period. Having it pressed to vinyl is always cool because it means it's a good enough track to be offered on vinyl. But, it will be the secondary release, not the primary.

Are there still vinyl only labels?

I would totally disagree with you here as well...
when you press a track 99% of the time you have promos pressed (white labels) before the release, those are which are sent to the "big name" djs to play. and sometimes pre-release white labels get distributed as well, as Im sure you have seen.

sort of off topic,
But also Ryan there is an old school way the top DnB gods in Europe used to do things. Whenever people like Ed Rush Optical, Red One etc would make the bangin tunes (back in the day they all came out of UK) they would hoard there tracks for literally years and only give them to their inner circles to rinse out around the world. There were times I would see some of those guys at big parties, hear a tune, and search for it forever only to see it finally releases sometimes 2-4 years later. It was the way they were able to own there scene for soo many years, and is why you never really saw too many US DnB djs come up cause they couldn't get the tracks. Then finally djs like Dieselboy and Evol Intent etc started to get good at making tracks good enough to rival the UK.

[Ryan]

Joey Mazzola has done pretty decent on beatport, he signed with Instereo (DJ Dans Label) so helps a little to get the track on the charts. He has also got quite of bit of prestige from his digital release within the industry, I know agents and other promoters have taken notice and its getting him a few more nationwide bookings, and I was told he got signed to AM Only as well right around when one of his traks hit #1 on beatport.

I think the biggest issue now with vinyl is the distro. With less record stores, I know its harder to get the record spread out, and beatport is known worldwide now so its alot easier to get it known. I know if I had a track released I would definately still do a minimum run, album cover etc., just so you have a more official product, kind of a trophy if you will.



I would totally disagree with you here as well...
when you press a track 99% of the time you have promos pressed (white labels) before the release, those are which are sent to the "big name" djs to play. and sometimes pre-release white labels get distributed as well, as Im sure you have seen.

sort of off topic,
But also Ryan there is an old school way the top DnB gods in Europe used to do things. Whenever people like Ed Rush Optical, Red One etc would make the bangin tunes (back in the day they all came out of UK) they would hoard there tracks for literally years and only give them to their inner circles to rinse out around the world. There were times I would see some of those guys at big parties, hear a tune, and search for it forever only to see it finally releases sometimes 2-4 years later. It was the way they were able to own there scene for soo many years, and is why you never really saw too many US DnB djs come up cause they couldn't get the tracks. Then finally djs like Dieselboy and Evol Intent etc started to get good at making tracks good enough to rival the UK.
Dude.... it's not 2000 anymore. White labels are a dying breed. When an artist puts out a new track now, it is usually distributed via the internet or snail-mail (on a CD) after a Non-Disclosure Agreement is signed to guarantee it is not going to be shared out.

When is the last time you have seen a top 10 DJ pull out the newest track (that isn't coming out until next month) on a white label vinyl? It never happens.

Maybe DnB is a little different because of the community aspect, but I can honestly say I hardly ever see big name DnB DJs spinning vinyl AT ALL anymore.

[stasis-AA]

i think everybody knows where i stand on the whole vinyl vs digital debate, but ill throw in anyways. whether its electronic music on vinyl or lil wayne on a cd, most of what youre essentially paying for is the distribution method. like others said it costs a decent chunk of money for mixing and engineering, pressing music to physical media on a large scale, dealing with the logistics of shipping it out to stores, etc. this is why ultimately the recording industry in its present state (major labels and tiny labels alike) can't hope to survive in a digital marketplace. pretty soon music stores will just consist of a couple machines where you plug in an ipod, swipe a card, and download songs to it.

but back on topic, there is one possible downside (depending on your point of view) to the ease of releasing music digitally: quality control. since its such a relative pain in the ass to do a vinyl run, A&Rs and other label heads usually have pretty high standards of quality with regard to what they'll sign - if they're going to press 1,000 vinyls, the shit better be solid enough to sell. distro houses feel this way too - for example, a lot of times unestablished labels / producers will have to have a remix by an established name on the flip side of their release in order to secure a deal. if you buy a piece of vinyl for 11 dollars or whatever from any semi-reputable label, you can essentially bank on the fact that the engineering is going to be pretty top notch, along with the overall production quality, because the tunes had to pass that bar. with digital releases, it costs literally nothing to put out tunes, and on top of that anybody can do it. thus there is no need to protect ones investment so to speak. a LOT of subpar shit gets released via digital, along with lots of tunes that the label felt just werent good enough for a vinyl run. this is why its much more highly regarded, even with vinyl dying out, to have a few vinyl releases to your name than 100 digital ones.

some people argue that anybody being able to release anything at any time is one of the selling points of the digital arena....to some extent i agree with that. as a music lover its great to have this abundance of tunes from all these unknown producers floating about, you never run out of new shit to check out. but from a dj standpoint, where you're trying to move a floor and production quality is insanely important, you take a much bigger risk with mp3. i get a LOT of tunes sent to me that are great conceptually, but the engineering just isn't there...you can't play something out of a system if it doesn't cover the spectrum, or if it doesnt have big fucking drums.

in answer to the original question i think its still everybody's goal to get a vinyl release while they still can, at this point in time anyhow. it shows a label was willing to make a genuine investment in you and take a chance on your music. a digital release, while still cool, only indicates that somebody was willing to make a cool graphic and do a writeup for you. kinda a strange paradox, no up and coming producers want to spin vinyl anymore, yet everybody wants to get released that way.

[kINEkT]

hardstyle, hardcore, and most forms of underground techno still have a 100% catalog of all releases on vinyl and don't have very many digital exclusives. Yes about 60-70% are releasing digital in conjunction with a vinyl release with about half releasing at the same time and the other half waiting 6 months to release digital. There is rarely a digital only release unless it is the producer just giving it away on a popular music forum or something. Typically Dutch, Italian, and German labels are still heavily vinyl situated where as the UK and USA have gone the way of digital as you can tell just by the most popular genres.

[silo]

...

i would like to offer the [extremely long] opinion of someone who buys music a lot and has been buying vinyl dance records for over 15 years....

beatport [w/ it's competitors] + serato have changed everything.

on monday while sitting @ work i bought 40 dope tracks from beatport. in 15+ years of buying records i have never bought 40 vinyl records i like & would mix at one time.....

i have never been in a record store with that many good records i did not already own....my record stores in orlando [one being my buddy alex's....http://www.dropshop.com, best record store in the country imho] would get new records twice a week. if you were down w/ a particular shop they might set aside a copy of the new bombs for you, otherwise you had to be one of the first 40 [or less] people to get there and get that new record. it was a mob scene in those shops on wednesdays & fridays when the new stuff got delivered. don't get me wrong, going to a record store and digging through vinyl is one of my favorite was to spend time, but the results vs time and effort spent are often lacking.

when you love a particular genre and you don't happen to live @ it's epicenter [like orlando in the 90's for breaks] you often have a limited selection in a bin or two in the shop. obviously most vinyl in vegas must be ordered from websites, so perhaps you get selection, but you wait for shipping [the good shit come from europe taking months] & hopefully its not melted goo after your ups guy leaves it by the door in july. i have waited forever for records only to end up w/ something warped or pressed low. plus i don't know how many $20+ double packs/compilations i have bought over the years to get one track i wanted.

if i was somehow able to find 40 tracks i liked on vinyl, i would pay many multiples of what i paid beatport. if you average $8 per record [i'm suspecting this likely quite low] you would pay $320 before shipping....instead i payed about $70 and was home mixing them that night. my mix from monday contains all tracks bought that day. without beatport & serato that certainly couldn't happen.

what this has changed for me is the way i can approach music itself. unhinged by financial & logistical restraint, i can buy music mercilessly.

i can log into beatport/juno.co.uk/trackitdown.net at any time of my [work]day or night and find sick music i've never heard before. as for the idea that there will be a lot of inferior producers putting out sub-par music which will clog the distribution channels, i have never found this to be a problem. the global community of music lovers who buy music through these sites assist by providing the purchase statistics which allow you to sort the available tracks by popularity. go to your favorite genre, select the top 100.....you will find the good shit. also look for the top 10 lists of your favorite djs/producers.....probably some good suggestions there too. plus now my record crate is now a usb flash drive on my keychain instead of a 40 pound aluminum box.

as for serato.....i resisted moving away from vinyl for years & years. i ran the dj & intelligent lighting department for mars music in orlando for several years. i was around the pioneer cd stuff & everything else daily and never even considered mixing on it. to me mixing records is the only kind of mixing i want to do. it was not until i played w/ serato that i thought going digital was even an option. now i only want to play serato. the most challenging part of mixing for me has always been finding the record i'm looking for [especially in time to make the mix i want] & getting the record back into it's correct sleeve. i have a tendency to mangle, and sorting out the records afterwards can be a nightmare.

obviously this perspective is somewhat off-topic, but i believe it is of value since it is the relationship between beatport [&similar] w/ the producers is what makes it all possible.

i have not put out my own releases yet [i assure this is coming soon], but i have have friends who have been doing so & running labels for a long time. there are a lot of talented producers who have been doing it a LONG time. these guys can produce a hot track in hours.....now they can start selling it the same day. to a global market. without giving up a cut of the profits or any control. the guys i like are now pushing out releases at a pace that i never saw when the logistics of vinyl required weeks to months & thousands of dollars. i'm sure many of you shop @ beatport.....look how many beatport exclusive tracks you have been seeing lately......

digital also gives you you the ability to create your own edits of tracks. you can mash something up in ableton, then drop it into serato & play it immediately.

i think digital allows an artist to take control of his/her own destiny. now with a laptop & software, an artist can travel the earth producing, playing, & selling music without having to rely on anyone else.

welcome to the future. it is good.


_b@

[JPaul]

good post!

[Detn8or]

yes but this has turned into Vinyl vs. Digital now.. gone off topic.. should be in the Vinyl vs. Digital post.

This is more about prodcers stand point not as much as the consumer. but whateva.

[silo]

...

yes but this has turned into Vinyl vs. Digital now.. gone off topic.. should be in the Vinyl vs. Digital post.

This is more about producers stand point not as much as the consumer. but whateva.

in re-reading my post i agree. i used a long vinyl vs. digital approach to support my argument that digital is the future & producing for vinyl is a logistical impediment to new tracks getting released. my use of the third person in the final paragraph actually removes me from my intended point.....it should read:

'i think digital will allow me to take control of my own destiny. now with a laptop & software, i intend to travel the earth producing, playing, & selling music without having to rely on anyone else."

selling digital tracks to be mixed via serato [or it's competitors] is the present, the future, & my future. i definitely agree genres are making the transition at different speeds & this is for a variety of reasons.

i fully agree w/ detn8or's point about a vinyl 'trophy', but otherwise vinyl is an obsolete technology i [love, but] have no more use for...it weighs a ton ;)


_b@

[Cyrus]

if i produced music i think my only goal would be to hear it played and to see people dancing to it regardless of what media it was being played through :D

[stasis-AA]

if i produced music i think my only goal would be to hear it played and to see people dancing to it regardless of what media it was being played through :D

best quote i've read on here in awhile. hats off to you.